People could be stopped from being Teachers based on political beliefs.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6855600.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=6848714

It is this sort of authoritarian government which oppresses other beliefs which I really hate.

Belief =/= condoning intolerance.

End of discussion. :D

Fact is, if the BNP are found to be officially racists, then the Government has a legal responsibility to remove the buggers from all public proffesions. At least, they should. Until then, it should be at the disgression of the headmasters.

'I am well aware that orthodox opinion is that 6m Jews were gassed and
cremated or turned into soup and lampshades... I have reached the
conclusion that the "extermination" tale is a mixture of Allied wartime
propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter witch-hysteria.' Nick Griffin

If a person can actively support a man who said that and follow what that monster says, I would not let them anywhere near any human being, let alone a child.

willchadwick wrote:

'I am well aware that orthodox opinion is that 6m Jews were gassed and
cremated or turned into soup and lampshades... I have reached the
conclusion that the "extermination" tale is a mixture of Allied wartime
propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter witch-hysteria.' Nick Griffin

If a person can actively support a man who said that and follow what that monster says, I would not let them anywhere near any human being, let alone a child.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMWcxqgzYdQ

Play from one minute to about one minute and thirty.

-----------------------------

bert vimes wrote:

Fact is, if the BNP are found to be officially
racists, then the Government has a legal responsibility to remove the
buggers from all public proffesions. At least, they should. Until then,
it should be at the disgression of the headmasters.

The enquiry is to find out whether the BNP having being "whites only" is racist.

If it is, then they should also say that any organisation that are specifically for one ethnic group is also racist.

Therefore,
IF they stopped BNP members being teachers (which I don't think they
should), they should also stop members of these organisations.

1. Watford Asian Community care
2. Watford African Caribbean Association
3. National Black Police Association
4. Metropolitan Black Police Association
5. Black Londoners Forum
6. Black Information Link (BLINK)
7. Operation Black Vote
8. Federation of Black Housing Organisations (FBHO)
9. Black Training Enterprise Group
10. Southwark Black Heritage Organisation
11. The Action Group for Irish Youth
12. Asians In Media (AIM)
13. Barfi Culture (Asians)
14. Black Britain
15. Black Enterprise
16. Black net Community
17. The Black Presence In Britain
18. Black Search
19. Black UK Online
20. Board Of Deputies of British Jews
21. Chinatown Online
22. Clickwalla (Asian)
23. Dimsum (Chinese)
24. Doncaster Chinese
25. CEMVO
26. Every Generation (Black)
27. Jewish.Co.UK
28. Jewish Telegraph
29. MMLondon (Asian)
30. Red Hot Curry (Asian)
31. National Association of Nigerian Communities – UK (NANC)
32. Barnsley Black and Ethic Minority Initiative


Personally,
I think that membership of a group which is only for one ethnic group
should not affect your job prospects, or if it does, it should be the
same for EVERY organisation.

After all, that is equality.

Simon Lock wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMWcxqgzYdQ

Play from one minute to about one minute and thirty.

Not good enough, you are going to say something as utterly apocryful, foul, evil and stupid as that you have to provide a reason I don't give a shit about European Law and when you express an utterly stupid view such as that I'm afraid you have to explain it.
Also do you believe that we still live in a racist society where
people of a different ethnicity are looked at as being inferior?

willchadwick wrote:

Simon Lock wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMWcxqgzYdQ

Play from one minute to about one minute and thirty.

Not good enough, you are going to say something as utterly apocryful, foul, evil and stupid as that you have to provide a reason I don't give a shit about European Law and when you express an utterly stupid view such as that I'm afraid you have to explain it.

You can blame the EU for that then.

Simon Lock wrote:

willchadwick wrote:

Simon Lock wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMWcxqgzYdQ

Play from one minute to about one minute and thirty.

Not good enough, you are going to say something as utterly apocryful, foul, evil and stupid as that you have to provide a reason I don't give a shit about European Law and when you express an utterly stupid view such as that I'm afraid you have to explain it.

You can blame the EU for that then.

No I can blame him for having the most disgraceful view on the face of the earth

Holy crap, seriously Simon?

You're being a poster child for right-wing propaganda, right down to copy and paste political beliefs. Your views are obstinate and unchanging, and you're unwilling to compromise and concede that your opinion might not be the "right" one. While you pretend that you're willing to accept other people's opinions, your obnoxious attitude towards the views anyone more left-wing than you proves otherwise. Absolutist principles are always ridden with hypocrisy, and it's amazingly frustrating to argue with someone who instead of forming their own opinion is linking to a video that's incredibly stupid in the first place.

The BNP is racist even if it pretends not to be; it hides behind claims of how affirmative action is oppressing the white majority but it doesn't take a genius to tell that what they're really saying is "oh god oh god people of different races are being treated equally and giving the same opportunities I have become accustomed to, make it stop, make it stop!"

Oh yeah, and your avatar bugs me. Has anyone pointed out the irony of an English nationalist Freddie Mercury? (Y'know, real name Farrokh Bulsara?)

(If we're linking to youtube videos instead of defending our point; can I recommend these? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbAKUdEWzq8 It's on topic and actually really interesting, even if you're not normally a fan of Russell Brand.)

I could argue further, but I'm not sure it's worth it with you Simon. For all you say you enjoy debating, you just enjoy putting your opinion out without respect for anyone else's and expect people to cave for your point of view with little to no consideration for theirs. A little hypocritical perhaps?

Simon Lock wrote:

You can blame the EU for that then.

Are you also suggesting that the EU promotes the belief that the holocaust didn't happen or that Adolf Griffin has that view because of the EU.

Or is it just the fact you sympathise with the most hateful person in the UK

willchadwick wrote:

@Simon Also do you believe that we still live in a racist society where people of a different ethnicity are looked at as being inferior?

I do indeed.

Let me give you an example.

http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page20821

Headline: "PM supports Black History Month"

http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2008/11/history-month-white-bnp

Headline: "Anger over BNP 'white history month'"


Why is a Black History Month endorsed, and a White History Month slammed?

Why put Black over White?

What happened to equality?



I disagree with all racism. I think that all races should be treated equally, despite their differences. This is the same as my stance on equality between men and women - different but equal.

What I really hate though is people who pretend to be "anti-racist", but actually mean "anti-white" or "anti-black".

willchadwick wrote:

Simon Lock wrote:

willchadwick wrote:

Simon Lock wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMWcxqgzYdQ

Play from one minute to about one minute and thirty.

Not
good enough, you are going to say something as utterly apocryful, foul,
evil and stupid as that you have to provide a reason I don't give a
shit about European Law and when you express an utterly stupid view
such as that I'm afraid you have to explain it.

You can blame the EU for that then.

No I can blame him for having the most disgraceful view on the face of the earth

That is fair enough. However, you cannot blame him for not being allowed to explain why, because that is not his fault.

(As a matter of fact, I don't like the BNP either. I just think they should have the same rights as everyone else.)

Yes but Simon the point is VERY VERY VERY rarely is their ever a Black attack on a white person, this country is still very hostile towards people of a different ethnicity and that's why the PM has to support the Black communities because there still mindless idiots who are opposed to integrating them into society and the BNP are largely responsible for keeping that hostility alive.

Simon Lock wrote:

That is fair enough. However, you cannot blame him for not being allowed to explain why, because that is not his fault.

No he should and if that person was a better interviewer he would have got it out of him because I am afraid you CANNOT have that view unless you explain yourself and that is why I don't want any right-wing, BNP flag waving Nazi teaching young children that belief is right one to have and you should support that idiot who says it, I'm sorry get stuffed.

Apple Schnapps wrote:

Holy crap, seriously Simon?

You're being a poster child for right-wing propaganda, right down to copy and paste political beliefs

I never said that I agree with the BNP. I don't in many areas. However, I do think that they should have the same rights as any other political party, and that their chances of gaining members should not be unfairly dented by saying that if people join them they cannot have certain jobs.

Apple Schnapps wrote:

Your views are obstinate and unchanging, and you're unwilling to compromise and concede that your opinion might not be the "right" one. While you pretend that you're willing to accept other people's opinions, your obnoxious attitude towards the views anyone more left-wing than you proves otherwise. Absolutist principles are always ridden with hypocrisy, and it's amazingly frustrating to argue with someone who instead of forming their own opinion is linking to a video that's incredibly stupid in the first place.

My views have changed a lot actually in the last few years. I have moved slightly to the left, (although I am still slightly right-wing economically), and I have become much more libertarian. My views are constantly being adapted through debate.

The video was actually from the daily politics show, one of the most watched political shows on the TV. It proved the point that Nick Griffin no longer claims that the holocaust was a fake.

Apple Schnapps wrote:

The BNP is racist even if it pretends not to be; it hides behind claims of how affirmative action is oppressing the white majority but it doesn't take a genius to tell that what they're really saying is "oh god oh god people of different races are being treated equally and giving the same opportunities I have become accustomed to, make it stop, make it stop!"
:

I agree. The BNP are a racist party, in that they place the future of the native ethnic groups of this country as their priority. However, other groups which do the same are just as racist.

Apple Schnapps wrote:

Oh yeah, and your avatar bugs me. Has anyone pointed out the irony of an English nationalist Freddie Mercury? (Y'know, real name Farrokh Bulsara?)

The avatar combines my two interests - the music of queen, and politics.
If you analyse the message behind it closer, you will see that I consider Freddie Mercury to be as English as you or me, despite his ethnic background. I think that being english is not just about ethnicity. I think that people from all background, who work in this country, and help to improve it, can be English.

Saying that because Freddie Mercury cannot be english because of where he was born seems to me quite racist itself.

Apple Schnapps wrote:

(If we're linking to youtube videos instead of defending our point; can I recommend these? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbAKUdEWzq8 It's on topic and actually really interesting, even if you're not normally a fan of Russell Brand.)

I will watch those later, as there seems to be quite a few.

Watching the first few seconds, he has already called him a nazi, which is quite a prejudiced viewpoint.

willchadwick wrote:

Simon Lock wrote:

You can blame the EU for that then.

Are you also suggesting that the EU promotes the belief that the holocaust didn't happen or that Adolf Griffin has that view because of the EU.

Or is it just the fact you sympathise with the most hateful person in the UK

Neither. I am saying that Griffin is not allowed to say what he thinks on that issue, because of european law. I do not sympathise with him either. I think the holocaust was one of the worst things humanity has done in history.

willchadwick wrote:

Yes but Simon the point is VERY VERY VERY rarely is their ever a Black attack on a white person, this country is still very hostile towards people of a different ethnicity and that's why the PM has to support the Black communities because there still mindless idiots who are opposed to integrating them into society and the BNP are largely responsible for keeping that hostility alive.

Sorry Will, but you are wrong there.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1294021.stm

"Police figures show a record number of racist attacks in the area - out of 572 reported cases last year, 60% of the victims were white"

If the PM supports equality, then why support an event promoting a certain race? That is hypocritical.

willchadwick wrote:

Simon Lock wrote:

That is fair enough. However, you cannot blame him for not being allowed to explain why, because that is not his fault.

No he should and if that person was a better interviewer he would have got it out of him because I am afraid you CANNOT have that view unless you explain yourself and that is why I don't want any right-wing, BNP flag waving Nazi teaching young children that belief is right one to have and you should support that idiot who says it, I'm sorry get stuffed.

It would have been illegal for Griffin to answer the question. I don't think it should be, but it is. Neither of us can change that.

I am sure that Griffin has reasons, but unless the EU changes it's mind, neither of us will know them.

And who says that they would teach the children to agree with their views? Do our teachers impose their beliefs on us? No. So why should BNP members be any different?

I think we should treat everyone the same.

Simon Lock wrote:

Sorry Will, but you are wrong there.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1294021.stm

"Police figures show a record number of racist attacks in the area - out of 572 reported cases last year, 60% of the victims were white"

In one area.

Simon Lock wrote:

And who says that they would teach the children to agree with their views? Do our teachers impose their beliefs on us? No. So why should BNP members be any different?

Would you let Nick Griffin teach WW2 history?

willchadwick wrote:

Simon Lock wrote:

Sorry Will, but you are wrong there.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1294021.stm

"Police figures show a record number of racist attacks in the area - out of 572 reported cases last year, 60% of the victims were white"

In one area.

And others.

willchadwick wrote:

Simon Lock wrote:

And who says that they would teach the children to agree with their views? Do our teachers impose their beliefs on us? No. So why should BNP members be any different?

Would you let Nick Griffin teach WW2 history?

If he had the relevant qualifications to do so, and adhered to the terms of his contract to teach the subject from an unbiased opinion, then yes.

I would treat him the same as any other teacher. Not to do so would not be discriminatory.

@appleschnappes
I think you have exactly the right attitude towards simon's opinions.

I believe that owing to his background and exposure to certain right wing media (and publications that are ARGUABLY propaganda), he now belives everything said by his "heros" i.e. The heads of FEP and Nigel Farage.
Furthermore, his argument that his views have been thouroughly changed in the past few years is politician speak. They have changed, because he has become politically aware, but that does not mean that they have changed recently, OR because of the arguments presented to him from various people of differing opinion.

As for the organisations which he claims to be racist, they are there to promote equality. I am sure that most of them would employ so-called "white" people, and I am also sure that many of them do. I am aware that he has also not checked his facts, since I know that the Black Police Association does emply white members of staff as administration workers. I would wonder just how a society that promotes racial equality could be racist, by definition. It's very nature is paradoxical. Then, he claims that equality is defined by saying all groups supporting one ethnicity should be treated the same. This is more political rhetoric, since there is a difference between organisations that ban certain ethnicities and ones which are there to provide support for them. The BNP bans ethnic minority members, whereas most of those groups will in fact support certain ethnicities, not ban them. It is a small detail that propaganda carefully uses to create a very different inferred meaning. These societies would not exist if the people they helped had equal opportunities, and while this is improving, they still have a huge role in promoting this. I would also like to note that he did not mention any of the societies set up to assist Eastern Europeans in his post. I wonder if he forgot about them since they are less phsically different to many other minorities?

I disagree with his opinions on the EU massively, but I am not even going to try and attempt to argue with him on this point since he closes his ears to any good things that come out of the EU, which are very numerous.

His ridiculous example about Black and White history weeks is equally infuriating, since one was set up to genuinely recognise that "Black" people had a history, and not just that it was the "white" invaders who have the history (i.e. colonialism, which I thoroughly dislike), whereas the White history week is a terrible example because of course it will be slammed: it was a deliberate provokation by the BNP to stir up controversy and to synthasise "inequality", which only the guillable could fall for, and so it deserves to be slammed by all ethnicities for being a racist publicity stunt (note that if this or any other comment of mine is taken out of context, I will refuse to comment further on this topic).

He moans about the fact that it is illegal for griffin to speak of why he beleived/s that the holocaust was a fake. Now, let's remind ourselves of why this is. It is thoroughly anti-social to suggest otherwise in the face of overwhelming evidence since it is insulting, very personally, to literally millions of people across the continent. Then, there is the fact denying it is only one step away from condoning it, as can be seen in places such as Iran (note I DO NOT condone the holocaust, nor do I deny it). Therefore, by denying it he is almost condoning it and at the same time offending the relatives of the millions of dead in a most unplesent fashion. Disgusting opinions such as his comments about denying it aught to merit an ASBO at the very least, since it was an international ATROCITY.

Back to the initial topic about teaching. I know that Simon does not like the fact that, in his words, "most teachers are left wing" and I propose that this topic is merely a vessel for him to suggest yet more F.E.P. opinions in the hope of drumming up support. Teachers are not neccessarily left wing, it is merely correlative with the fact that they are all highly educated, and most have excellent understanding about the world they live in as a result of their intelligence. This in itself is a whole new argument about eliteism, but at the end of the day, we cannot have troglodytes teaching Britain's or any other country's children, since these children will simply not be educated properley. The point I make here is that people with middle class opinions are generally more left wing (this is true throughout history), though I would point out that this is a generalisation, and teaching is a middle class proffesion.

I hope I have provided an interesting and reasonable response to the comments of comrade Lock (only joking).


NOTES TO ADMIN:
Very sorry Admin for going off topic, but a lot of issues were being discussed.
Also, there is a lot of double (or even triple I think) posting on this forum, which looks very messy, and it is against the terms of use.

Pre reading argument:

You know how to spend your Friday nights, just like me and Karl do.

@appleshnapps wow, never seen you so angry before! ={

any party that allows intolerence of any person to be part of their core beliefs is what i can only state as pathetic. England is what it is today thanks to the many different cultures that have been woven into each other to make a very intresting country i love to call my home. Without multiple races and nationalties living together i know for a fact me and bert wouldnt be here today (me part irish and bert part welsh and polish).

This is the reason why im not anti eu as mine and my best friends roots stem from there. ukip and bnp will have to realise that nobody in our country is true english as we all disend from other nationalities, even the symbol of our country has EU German blood in the family tree. THE QUEEN!

Im going to stop talking now as its fucking pissed me off but simon before reply to anybody else please stop copy and pasting your ideas and get your own beliefs based on all the facts not just as a select few as simon i know your a very smart person but the whole other side of the argument is clouded in your copy and paste vision. i know why the bnp and ukip believe what they do and i have completly oposite views but at least i know them so i can have a fair opinion.

anyway im off now, sorry about all lower case but im typing this on the wii using the remote so its already taken me 20mins to type this out without proper grammA

-----------------------------

By the way ive not and am not reading bert or simons
posts as itll be just the same as the last two years of arguments. It
always is.

I agree with Amy on this one, bert can you please
resist fuelling these arguments with simon in the future, your both
seriously annoying your other friends not just online but in real life
as well.

YES YOU BOTH HAVE YOUR OPINIONS, KINDLY RESPECT YOUR
FRIENDS SANITY BY KEEPING THESE TO YOURSELVES AND NOT BORE US THE FUCK
TO DEATH. POLITICS HAS A TIME AND PLACE, EVERY TIME YOU SEE EACH OTHER
ISNT IT, YOU BOTH ARE REALLY PISSING ME OFF. THE BEST YOU CAN DO IS GET
THIS POST LOCKED AND CALL IT A FUCKING DAY!!!

@kabirrane

What I wrote today was actually a sustained argument unlike the normal garbage I spill at simon to get him to stop talking at me, the reason being because if it does not stay as a mature debate, it will be locked. The polite thing to do would be to read it as I read your posts, or to at least pretend you had instead of ranting and raving at me and him. We both have opinions and this is the relevant place to express them, and if it irritates you, then don't come to this part of the forum - no one makes you.

As for respecting my friends sanity, it is not down to me to force you to stop listening to us, only you can do that. This is a serious topic, and you should perhaps take a more sensible approach to it, rather than just "having a go" at us about it. You have no idea what I said in that post and the result is that you claim it is the same argument as always, yet you cannot possibly know whether it is or not since you couldn't be arsed to read it. It's not my fault that you're typing on the Wii after all.